Cursed, But Covered by Grace?

Standard

119 Ministries Quotes are in BLUE.  Mine are in BLACK.

“I will attempt to show that this apathy and emptiness is a result of the practices of the modern church which are in direct contradiction with scripture, and as a result; the Church is reaping a Curse.” -from Blessed or Cursed?

“By adopting a “grace only” doctrine, the church has forsaken the warnings throughout scripture and is
reaping the curse.” -from Blessed or Cursed?

CONTRADICTS

“Y’shua dying on the cross abolished the curse that resulted from our disobedience to God’s law.” -from Grace, Faith and Obedience – How Do They All Work Together?

“When we keep God’s law, we still receive the blessings as originally prescribed, but not the curse of the second death when we fail. When we fail, it is covered under grace through the work on the cross. When we are obedient, we still receive the blessings.” -from Grace, Faith, and Obedience – How Do They All Work Together?

The Church is reaping a curse, but in the midst of her failure, she is covered by grace and the curse is no longer valid? Hmmm.  You cannot have the curse abolished by Jesus and yet have it still applicable under the Law.

Test Everything!

Advertisements

16 responses »

  1. “The Church is reaping a curse”

    Every time a Christian follows Rome’s indulgence that allows the eating of the flesh of swine and ends up with trichinosis, they are reaping the natural consequences of disregarding God’s “Useful Instructions for Living”.

    119: “When we keep God’s law, we still receive the blessings as originally prescribed, but not the curse of the second death when we fail. When we fail, it is covered under grace through the work on the cross. When we are obedient, we still receive the blessings.” -from Grace, Faith, and Obedience – How Do They All Work Together?

    TheBlogger: “The Church is reaping a curse, but in the midst of her failure, she is covered by grace and the curse is no longer valid? Hmmm. You cannot have the curse abolished by Jesus and yet have it still applicable under the Law.”

    The Church is not keeping ‘God’s law’ (a prejudicial, anti-Semitic, translation of Torah).

  2. If you get food poisoning from eating bad chicken, are you reaping a curse? I don’t think so. Natural consequences do not = curses.

    • So you don’t believe there could be spiritual consequences to disregarding God’s instruction as to what constitutes food and what doesn’t. Fair enough.

      You’d have to agree avoiding something that God called an abomination would be a good thing for God’s people, correct?

      Can you walk me through the “defining down” of an abomination? Eating things that were not defined as food for us humans was called an abomination. Modern Christianity by and large teaches those things defined as not-foods, or specifically “abominations” in the Torah, are no longer such. Let’s assume the segment of Christianity that teaches this is correct.

      What was once called an abomination by God in the Torah is no longer such. Either He changed His mind, nailed it to the cross, something. Regardless, what was once an abomination is no longer.

      I wonder: can we down-define some of the other abominations in the Torah? homosexuality? unjust business practices? sacrificing children to appease a god?

      Think of the benefit: it would sure solve A LOT of current American societal debate if we could down-define homosexuality and gay marriage, like what much of Christianity teaches occurred for the dietary instruction.

      Can you take me through how the change in definition occurred?

  3. The Curse of Eternal DEATH was abolished by Jesus, not the consequences for throwing out God’s Instructions. The Torah (God’s Word) promises blessings if we keep it, and curses if we don’t. Jesus didn’t die so we can break His Torah and nothing bad will ever happen to us as a result. That’s hogwash.

  4. Were you alive 3,000 years ago at Mt. Sinai Joyfully? What tribe are you from? My reading of the Old Testament, is that God selected a people from amongst mankind way back when, and they were called the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites. He gave THEM the law(s)….not His Church. The law is written in our hearts, not externalized with avoiding pork and attending sabbath mass.

    • Hence “mixed multitude” and God’s response that there will be one law for the native born and the strangers who sojourn with them.

  5. I notice in your criticisms of 119 Ministries you do not mention their view of God. Please research this and see what you think they are saying. They seem to be Sabellianist to me, but they are now veiling their language in the ambiguous fashion of Jim Staley. If they are Sabellianists they are antichrists. Where everyone else says if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, AND say if they mean that from a Trinity view point, modalist or binitarian, they seem to want to remain ambiguous, perhaps so they can siphon donations off Unitarian Jews and Christians, and help deceive both into their beliefs without talking about the tricky subject of God in their man made syncretic false faith. I have a facebook group called “119 Ministries debunked”.

  6. Yes. The law is written on our hearts. Which law? The one that tells us lying, adultery, murder… Are wrong. Funny,I read that somewhere. In the Torah I think. Yes, in the Torah, so if I obey the law written on my heart, I keep the law written in Torah. But wait a minute, you say if I keep that I’m under law and that is sin!
    If you’re right there’s no hope for any of us. To live holy lives is impossible because of the glaring contradiction in your own logic.

    Please, think it through. You don’t make logical sense at all!

    • Eve, that is the way I am understanding the Word. G-d gave 613 commandments in all with the first being Shabbot along with G-d’s feasts, or ‘appointed times’, and the 10 Commandments, conduct and ordering for the Temple, etc.

      We are called to walk in the ways of Yeshua. He kept the Law and did not turn way from them even though He Himself is Salvation.

      Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

      In His death He fulfilled the first 4 of the Laws in the Feasts (appointed times). The Feast of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, The Feast of First Fruits and Pentecost. There are 3 Feasts to be fulfilled in the future. His second coming will fulfill these being the Feast of Trumpets, the Feast of Yom Kippur and the Feast of Sukkot.

      When the Commandments were given it was with the instruction that they be “forever and ever”. The G-d I worship does not change and His Word is everlasting.

      Why would Yeshua turn away from His own Commandments?

      John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

      What law was it Yeshua condemned? Rabbinical law, man-made law.

      We are blessed to have salvation from Yeshua along with Commandments of instruction for living a righteous life. The two go hand in hand and are not separate from each other for salvation comes by grace through Yeshua and righteousness (in Hebrew this literally means “following the path”) by obeying G-d’s Laws.

      Praise G-d from whom all blessings and salvation flow!

      • 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

        Philippians 3:9

        While yes, thank God, we have salvation through Yeshua, our righteousness does not come from the law.

        30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

        1 Corinthians 1:30

        We cannot add to the righteousness of Jesus. As a believer, it’s ALL his righteousness; none ours. We are now IN him. We access God THROUGH him. It’s so much bigger than trying to make the Law be our means to righteousness. When we say Jesus plus the Law, we are saying Jesus is not enough. He’s too little. But he’s so much bigger. So complete.

  7. Leah, you are correct that it is much bigger. The thread of Yeshua running through the Tanakh from Genesis 1:1 to the New Testament in Revelation 22:21 is the whole. Please don’t read my words and think that I obey G-d’s Laws for my salvation because I don’t. I obey G-d’s Laws because He commanded me to do so in order to live a good life.

    Leah, from the scriptures you have given it seems as though we are saying the same thing, but in a different way.

    I am not saying Yeshua plus the Law. I am saying it is because of the Salvation of Yeshua I naturally want to obey G-d’s Law. That they go hand in hand.

    Please help me understand by explaining what it is you have against G-d’s Law.

    • The best I can explain it is this: Jesus came and perfectly kept the law. When he died he entirely completed the law. When he rose again he empowered believers through the Holy Spirit to walk daily under the direct counsel of God. The old wine skin cannot contain the new wine of the new covenant. It’s new. His blood is the blood of a new covenant.

      “13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.”

      Ephesians 2:13-16

      Verse 15 talks about abolishing the law, *not while he lived*, but through his death. It also talks of bringing Jews & Gentiles together as a result, and, IN HIM, *creating* one NEW man. Verse 16 reiterates the elimination of the old laws by saying it was put to death.

      A couple verses later it says this:

      “19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirt.”

      Ephesians 2:19-22

      Notice verse 20…the foundation is NOT the LAW & prophets… It can’t be. The Law is completed.

      Now to answer your question one other way…what do I have against the Law? Not one thing. Nothing at all. I adore the entire Bible, Genesis-Revelation. I read it all, ask for understanding from the Holy Spirit about it all. But here’s why we are in different places. When I was a little girl, I played with dolls. When I grew up, I had real children of my own and the two are not even comparable. I don’t have a thing against dolls. But I no longer play with dolls because my children are so much greater and beyond what it was to play with dolls. Why would I ever go back to playing with dolls? So, similarly, why would I ever go back to trying to fulfill the old law when standing before me is my Messiah who is greater than the Law and who has finished it. He is the one I seek. The law cannot get deeply enough into my sin nature to root out my sin; but the living Holy Spirit can. And I obey him. The law cannot make me righteous. But Jesus’ blood can.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s